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When was the last time someone gave you the middle finger?

Did it turn into a life-changing moment of introspection? Me neither. 

But that’s exactly what happened when Professor Michael Hudson was chair of the entrepreneurship program at an Ivy League school

A student came to him pleading for help. 

But Michael turned him away to schedule an appointment with his secretary. An appointment that was seven days out.

The student turned back into the office and said, “I thought you were supposed to be here for us.” Then he flipped Michael off and walked away.

This became a major turning point for Prof. Hudson as he set off to uncover:

  • Why was he so desperate for awards and accolades?
  • How could experiences of his past guide the direction of his future?
  • When would he finally be satisfied with the work he was doing?

Discover your own answers to these questions and more in this week’s episode.


Thank you for listening! Remember, if you enjoy the episode please share the linkthank you for your support.

Always Forward,


Resources Mentioned:

Dr. Michael Hudson 0:04

Within 90 days, I booked the same revenue level of the previous year, because the right clients had shown up, literally the nature of the people who started calling me was different, largely because I did one thing.

Joe Pomeroy 0:19

Everybody, welcome to today's episode of the Forward with Joe Pomeroy cast. I'm excited to have guest Michael Hudson here, Michael and I go back a few years but we were able to be in a mastermind together. And it's been amazing to be connected with you, Michael and to see your journey. What Michael does is he helps entrepreneurs, experts and executives unlock their potential and the potential of their business by mastering their message and its delivery to create the outcomes they're seeking. Michael, welcome to the show.

Dr. Michael Hudson 0:49

Thank you, Joe. It's a pleasure and a privilege to be here.

Joe Pomeroy 0:51

Awesome. So I'm excited to dive right into your story. There's a few different aspects and ways that we could go I'm fascinated with individual I look to as leaders and experts, and I go wow, you know, like, used to head up an entrepreneurship program at an Ivy League school. I mean, that's the cream of the crop. And that's the dream we're looking for what a way to be. And but then it wasn't.

Dr. Michael Hudson 1:16

That's true.

Joe Pomeroy 1:17

Yeah. So I love the story in hearing that transition, because I feel like those are the conversations that help us as human beings recognize the value in our own journey and where we're at. So tell me about how you got into that Ivy League school, what you're doing and then what happened to the transition out of that.

Dr. Michael Hudson 1:34

Okay, we'll be here till Tuesday. Hang in there folks

Joe Pomeroy 1:38

Give the clif notes of the cliff notes.

Dr. Michael Hudson 1:41

You know, I'm a born teacher. It's just been, it's how I'm wired. You know, and it's one of the reasons I'm shifting my branding back to Professor Hudson, just because that's, that's how I'm wired. You know, so I had the privilege of getting hired out of grad school with my PhD at University of Illinois, built a program there that got national recognition which got me the opportunity to come to Cornell to build a program. So that's how I ended up in the Ivy League. You know, I had a 42 person Advisory Council, we were teaching students, you know, the joys of entrepreneurship, the challenges are entrepreneurship, trying to inspire them trying to support them. Tada under a lot of business plans and things, a lot of my guest speakers would come in and say, Well, I never wrote a business plan, which was real hope. But we had a big business plan competition every year, you know, so a lot of fun, great program and loved it right. I'm kind of a builder, Joe. That's kind of how I'm wired. You know, it's the teacher in the builder. I want to create something to get people excited. But quite honestly, I get really bored really fast running. Yeah. And so, you know, I'm in year four, I'm at that point where we've gotten recognition from being non existent. were suddenly in the top 15 on the list of, I think it was Businessweek to use to publish the top entrepreneurship programs in the country back in the early 90s. I'm getting a little bored. I'm getting a lot burnout, because I got into I got a PhD because I love to teach and I wanted to change people's lives. And now I was administrating. I'll tell you the epiphany moment I had a kid walk into my office one day and he said, uh, have you got time to talk? I got a problem. I need to talk to you. I said, See, my is Debbie out there. I said, No. I said, we'll come back when she's out there. She can set up an appointment. He goes, come on, I really need to talk. I said, how much time you need? Probably an hour. It's a big problem. And I said, well, and I heard Debbie walk back and I said, talk to her get an appointment. Joe honestly the next open date on my calendar between 7am and 10pm. At night was seven days down the road. Wow. She scheduled scheduled him in the next opening and he stuck his head in the door. And he gave me a hand gesture only an angry college student would give a professor you can imagine only involve one thing. And he said, when he said the following words, he said I thought you were supposed to be here for us. And he turned around and walked away, and my heart hit the floor. I said you got into this, you're building this program. All of this stuff that's on your calendar is to try to give them a better experience and help them learn and help them grow so they can Go enjoy their entrepreneurial journey. And you don't have time to talk to the people you're here for. So I did that thing you get to do when you're in charging, have an executive assistant who's really capable. I walked that and told her to cancel my afternoon, I'm going to be in here doing something, a project that needs my full attention, locked my office door and reviewed my calendar for the last 10 months. And I discovered I was spending less than 7% of my time teaching and working with students and the rest was all in administrivia. That was the minute I decided, even though I have an endowed chair at an Ivy League institution, and I'm not even 36 years old, I have to leave. And so I started testing the boundaries because my 42 person Advisory Council saw me as the CEO of their little company, and I knew that if I pushed hard enough, they'd invite me to leave. So I did and they did. You know, and and and I don't regret it at all because I was you know, at that point, and you haven't seen me physically for a while, you know, I weigh 80 pounds less than I think the last time you and I probably Physically saw each other. But I weighed about 100 pounds more than I do now, at that moment in my life, because I wasn't taking care of myself. I was eating three meals a day in the office, and I just was fried. So, you know, I had to get away and I had to leave it. You know, that's how it happened. And you know, people ask why and how and, you know, because let's face it, you know, you're in a tenured position. You know, the beauty of the academic role is once you've earned tenure, in theory, you're got a lifetime job, and a nice paying job, be quite candid. But you know, I just I realized I wasn't doing what I was wired to do. And I realized why when that when that student said that, and I did that analysis and realized how little time I was spending with them. I realized, no wonder I'm frustrated all the time. No wonder I'm overeating. No wonder I'm overweight. No, and I'm out of shape. No wonder I'm depressed all the time. Because I'm not fulfilling why God put me here.

Joe Pomeroy 5:48

So that's interesting, because what you started doing was in line with ultimately, you know, you talked about being a builder about being a teacher. And so the path that you started on was in line with that. And I like the idea of you took the time to do an analysis, because that's one of the things that I think is foundational to the stuff that I present. It's one thing to say, Hey, I'm going to pursue my purpose. But if we're not looking at the road, that we're traveling and making sure that we're staying on that course, then a flight from New Zealand to Alaska that's off by just a degree or two is going to end up in a radically different location than what they intended. And oftentimes, even you know, if we're using that analogy, a very dangerous location. I think there's even a story from not too long ago about a plane that that happened to and they thought they were coming into a valley and it was a mountain top. And that was the end of that. So you do this analysis, you review what's been going on, you recognize that it's not taking you on the path that you want to go. And so then you create a plan to move towards your path, but I'm assuming there was more to your plan than just Alright, well, let's see how I can get invited to leave and you know, so What was the intention when you moved on? Where was the direction you wanted to go?

Dr. Michael Hudson 7:05

There wasn't much of a plan as there should have been Joe. You know, because there's so much else going on, right? I mean, there's there's a lot of stuff happening there, you know, and

Joe Pomeroy 7:15

but you'd started another business.

Dr. Michael Hudson 7:16

Well, I, you know, I started I started my consulting business literally the day I signed my contract at the University of Illinois was the same day I signed my first consulting client. And so I'd had a side business as doing consulting and speaking, and a little bit of coaching here and there, the entire time that I was in Illinois, and I was Illinois for five and a half years, I was at Cornell for four and a half. So it was still doing some of that on the side, not as much at core at Cornell because I had so many other roles in what I was building there. And what I really realized is I want to get back to where I'm doing more speaking, I want to get back to more interacting with real world people doing real world stuff. While when I was in the academic world, I was one of those people who would push back when you said that wasn't the real world. It's a very Real World is just its own real world. So, you know, that was part of the vision, part of the vision was to decompress and sort of just take a breath. You know, I'm the guys that went to undergrad, went into the master's program right away, went through the Ph. D. program right away, jumped right into a position at the university right away building a program did it again. So I had kind of been on a 20 plus year journey, they're really deep into that. And I just kind of needed to divorce it. So fundamentally, my plan for year one was to do nothing. really well. You know, in academia, there's there's a culture where, you know, you earn a sabbatical after so many years, and I'm oversimplifying, and I could not tell you, if that's how it is today. But if you were a tenured faculty member, and typically when you got tenure before you you know, the first time like an alarm when I got tenure, you know, you were eligible to take a sabbatical. Now that was the objective of a sabbatical is you go work on something you're curious about and want to learn more about for a year and you receive half of your salary for that time period. Oh, I didn't do that. In fact, When I was getting when I was in Illinois, when I left Atlanta to go to Cornell, I was actually about to go to Australia, and teach at a school there for a year, which is going to be a sort of sabbatical. But it was it was the western Western Australia Institute of Technology, which is about 70 miles from Perth. So as a guy who grew up at the beach, I was, and you know, I was single at the time, it's like this will be a great place to live for a year. And then the Cornell opportunity came, and I couldn't pass it up. So I was at the point at Cornell, where I could have taken a sabbatical. So when the opportunity came, and it became very clear that I no longer was going to be the person to lead the program that you know, they wanted a different CEO. Basically, I was able to basically take a sabbatical for a year that coincided with resigning. And so I literally spent that year because I just started using email. And I was fascinated. And the internet was just coming into play. And I spent that year studying the internet. So imagine studying the internet between July of 94 and June of 95. A lot of AOL email address You know, a lot of random watching in chat rooms to see, okay, how does this work? What goes on, you know, what's the process? Where's this heading trying to figure out? Does this make sense for business? You know, and I did that I also worked out a lot and got rid of all that a lot of that excess weight at least 50 pounds of it back then. And really just sort of ponder, you know, what was I best suited to do? Who do I want to serve? And I wish I could tell you I got to where I really wanted to be in that eration I didn't, because the time came where Hey, dude, you got to start making some money. Now you're just this little half year salary is kind of been used up. So the plan was to just find a way to get back to doing what I loved. I wanted to be happy. I wanted to be be walking away every day going, Okay, I made a difference there.

Joe Pomeroy 10:42

So did you make that discovery during that sabbatical period? Is it a continuing discovery each day that you go through? What does that look like for you as you find the work you want to do that you love?

Dr. Michael Hudson 10:53

You know, Joe, that question is a fascinating question because it taps into what I think is many people's big Biggest challenge. We think we're going to get done with that quest to figure it out. And we're not. Now I say that sitting here now as a man who is 62 won't be 63 in August. I certainly have a different perspective on the world today than I did when I was your age, you know, but I know I used to get frustrated. It's like, isn't it ever over? Yeah, I decided now I'm doing it. Why am I still thinking about what's next? Well, what I've concluded is that those of us who are driven to do things and change the world and use the gifts we were given, and the way we're intended to use them, are always going to be chasing, where are we supposed to use them now? Because there is no question in my mind. I was planted at the University of Illinois for a purpose at a moment in time. And I say that because the program that I ended up creating there and co creating with someone would never have happened, had it not have been for one of my student advisees walking in and saying something to me that made me realize we have a problem we need to solve. So You know, I was in the right place at Cornell, I was in the right place. You know, when I fell into accidentally in niche serving the credit unions, I was in the right place for about 18 years. And then I woke up and realized I was in the wrong place. And Joe, that was deeply personal. You've read some of that in the pre work I shared with you, you know, we can go down a whole other path there of you know, how some of us are so driven to get the recognition and the accolades and the acknowledgement that we are worthwhile because we have done good things that we can suppress and hide some pretty bad stuff from our past. That will one day come back and bite us. I am 100% convinced of that, it bit me two or three times before I finally dealt with it, is I would find a way to push past and go back after the other stuff again. So that's a whole nother area to talk about if you want, but that's how I see that right. We are planted where we need to be we never actually figure it out. So it's a continued evolution of what works. Now because we grow, we change, we evolve, we develop. And I think the most frustrated people are the ones who stopped doing it.

Joe Pomeroy 12:00

Yeah, I do want to go down that path. I do want to get into that, because there's a powerful story about letting go in order to move forward. So good things I want to discuss there. But I want real quick to talk on something you mentioned about being in the right place at the right time. And then eventually that becoming the wrong place. Because when we were in a mastermind a few years back, there was a side business that I was doing, that I had felt very strongly was an answer to prayer that I ought to be doing and that that's what God wanted me to do. But it wasn't jiving, it wasn't connecting. And I still remember what you told me and it was about Joe is this where is this what you want to be known for? Is this where you want to go? Is this where your heart is? And my answer was, I think I told you Yes, at the time, but in my mind, I'm going No,

Dr. Michael Hudson 13:57

Your mouth said yes. Your eyes did not

Joe Pomeroy 14:01

Yeah, exactly, exactly. But that was so difficult because this idea, this fear of loss, this fear of, well, I know, this is where I'm supposed to be. And I know that this has value. But how do I let go of that to move into the unknown? And that's a powerful thing for entrepreneurs to be able to, to figure out, especially those that are working a corporate job and want to transition into the entrepreneurial world, because there's so there's so many beliefs, and values and ideas that were programmed with about it's safe, you get a safe job that provides the safe income and the safe benefits and the safe pension and, and that's the right way to do it. Yeah. And so that's this whole reprogramming. So actually, that idea of reprogramming that takes us back into what you were starting to talk about this idea of experiences that you'd had and things that were taking Place and, and you had some, some negative baggage that was driving you to make certain decisions, and you had to reprogram those things. So tell us about that. And you can share whatever parts of the story you do or don't want to share, but dive into that. And especially what I would love to hear is what drove the transformation. And then what is life like now, living out that transformation?

Dr. Michael Hudson 15:28

I'm unpacking in my head. There's a lot there, but I can I got this Joe. You know, here's, and we're gonna drop a pretty big bomb on your audience here. Okay? And I need you to know number one, I'm okay. Or I wouldn't be talking about this. Number two, that I'm not sharing because I want anyone to feel anything for me or about me. I want them to ask themselves, is there anything in their life they need to deal with like that? And for me, the reality is I'm a verbal processor. I understand the world by talking through things. When I was 10, I was silenced because I was raped and molested for a year by someone who threatened to kill me if I ever told anyone and I became silent and went within. Story is what freed me? Because I turned to reading books. That's how I coped. Now, I'm also that person who suppressed that and completely forgot put that memory out. I don't know when. But it was a long period of my life. I didn't even recognize that any of that it happened.

Joe Pomeroy 16:28

clarifying question, just to make sure I'm clear like you basically let go of that or buried that so deeply that you didn't even remember it taking place?

Dr. Michael Hudson 16:39

Yeah, yeah. And then in my you know, and no, so this is the this is the rest of the story of Cornell in that I started dealing with depression. And I dealt with it in my teens a bit I dealt with in my 20s a bit, but when I hit 35 ish, I started dealing with seriously I mean, it became a serious obstacle culminating in Really getting my attention one day when I was supposed to go to a place to judge an international competition representing my program, and I got out of bed pack and suddenly found myself shaking uncontrollably. Having cold sweats, and everything in my body screaming at me, you cannot go get on that plane today. And I literally just sat on the bed frozen. I finally got myself together enough to make a phone call and tell the people I was unfortunately sick and could not come. That was when I realized I needed help. So I went to a therapist, you know, the brief version of that is I went to him for 13 weeks, he asked a lot of questions. I talked a lot. As I was driving there for the 14th appointment, I was pissed. Like, he's never said anything to me. I want him to help me figure out what's wrong. And he just keeps asking me questions. And I've told him everything there is to do to say, and so I made my mind up when he asked the first question that I was gonna say I'm not answering any questions today. It's your turn. And I did and he looked at me with this very puzzled look. And he said, You know, you're right. He said normally by now I would have said something. He said, but something doesn't fit. So what do you mean? He said, Have you told me everything and I said, Dude, you know more about me than I do. I've said everything. Everything is there. He says, Well, here's what's wrong. He said, everything in what you're describing paints you as the victim, and you have never ever mentioned being a victim. And Joe, at that instant, it is as if someone reached inside my head. press the play button on a VCR. Yes, I'm that old. And I saw a movie, a vivid movie of the events that happened during that year. Wow. Tears started rolling down my face and I sat there sobbing, I mean, literally sobbing uncontrollably. To the point that he said, I'll be back. If you need something, just dial such and such on the phone and we'll get it into he sat there for three hours, just dealing with this sudden realization. That I had forgotten all about that. Now, I wish I could tell you that I continue to work with him and everything worked out. But this is all happening right about at that time that I'm realizing I need to leave. And I'm messing things up a little bit more. And some of that was perhaps driven by the depression. So you know, I didn't deal with it then. Even though it smacked me in the head and probably cost me the job because I'm not sure if I wasn't dealing with a depression, I would have made the same decision I would have instead made it made a decision to probably hire someone to be the administrator of the program. So I could be the teacher. And now I just forgot about it again. I mean, I you know, I kind of just I spent that year trying not to remember any of that. Yeah, you know, instead of trying to work through I tried Initially, I found a couple therapists who were nuts.

Dr. Michael Hudson 19:47

Then I got back to what I'm good at. I started working again, you know, I got I got a client that you know, hired me to build a small business program for Community College. I met the woman who is now my wife the day I started working with them. That became my mission that I had finally found the person I hadn't taken the time to look for when I married the academic world. And so you know, we roll on, everything's fine, you know, and then I stumble accidentally into this niche, I get traction, I got to the mid six figure business, honestly, I'm not working that hard to maintain it. And I'm pretty happy. And then one day, I'm not. I'm flying home. And I'm saying this is this is ridiculous. This is not what God put me here to do. Because I was doing too much of the same thing over and over. And I wasn't seeing any change on the part of the people I was working with. Yeah, and if I know anything, the gifting I was given was to help shake people up and make them think differently. So they act differently and go to where they're capable of being, you know, when they discover how much further they can go than they think. And I realized I was just frustrated because what was I doing? I was chasing the dollars. I don't know about you, but I don't know how much of your audience is male. But you know, we men have a bad problem. We tend to define our value based on how much Income we earn in a year. And if next year is isn't higher than last year's then we suck. Yeah. And if you and if next year's is lower than both of those years, we really suck. What if we can keep making it bigger? It's okay. Well, you know, to keep making it bigger I kept I was taking on clients, it didn't fit. So my epiphany moment was in November of 2014. I'm sitting at a conference, I've been hired to be one of three coaches who are going to take people into a room after the keynote speech and help them figure out what to do with what they just learned. The keynote speaker was a guy named Michael bungay stanier great coaching guy. And Michael had everybody fill out a pie chart about what kinds of work they were doing to find his good work bad working great work. He said good work is your job description. If you don't do it, it doesn't get done and you're good at bad work is abbreviated wombat, because it is a it is a waste of money, bandwidth and time. Great work is the work you're really here to do. So I'll put you into sleep. Joe, I'm at a table, I've got four other co four or five CEOs at the table with me who are going to be in a room with me afterwards with about another hundred and 20 people. And I've got to be honest. So I draw the chart. It's a simple circle with, the middle of pie chart, and I labeled 65% of my work bad work. Wow. And you might as well hit me you in the face for the two before but I realized that was worth 5%, great work and the rest good. on the plane ride home, I made a list of my clients who were the bad work clients who were the good work clients who were the great clients. I then joyously walked in the house after not being at home for four days and said to my wife, I made a big decision on a flight home. And I handed a list and I said, see all these people in the column A, I'm firing them next week. Just like what I said, Yeah. And yes, I know, before you ask, there's 74% of our revenue, but I'm not working anymore. Because I'm not making a difference. I'm not contributing. I'm not changing anything because I'm there. And I can't keep doing that. Yeah. Now anybody listening right is going Whoa, my God. What? techy like, how does that work? How are you still alive? But here's, here's what happens, right? And I've seen time and again, when you get clear on who you're here to serve, they start showing up. Because the other thing I did on the backside of that sheet of paper, because I knew my wife, I knew the question she'd answer as I wrote the description of who the ideal client was, you know, that exercise they always have you do before you even understand what it is and who your ideal client is. Well, now I knew, because it was crystal clear who the ones were that were in a great work column. I wrote a description. And I said, I'm going to double the business next year, I'm going to sell it because this is not why God put me here. I'm here for other things. And she's like, why are you gonna do that? It says, You've trusted me this for just trust me. Truth is Joe just put the punch line on that. Within 90 days. I had booked the same revenue level of the previous year because the right clients had shown up and that didn't have a thing to do with me. Literally the nature of the people who started calling He was different, largely because I did one thing. I started saying no to anybody who looked like one of the bad work clients, before we ever started a conversation. I said, You know what, I'm not the right person for you, here's how I think you should talk to me, I introduce you to them.

Joe Pomeroy 24:13

So now we've got this new chapter. And you're doing different things. And it's a chapter that starts with remembering some highly traumatic events from when you were young, to, there's a difference between letting go of something from moving on for something and just putting it back in the package and back on the shelf. And when we do that, those things tend to resurface, they tend to still impact us because my choices are still being driven by this, these elements in the shadows, these things that are behind me that I'm I'm either running from or I'm chasing something that I think will help me defeat those things, even if I'm doing it subconsciously. So now we're getting to the part of the story where you stopped running You took it off the shelf, and you did what needed to be done with it. So tell us about that.

Dr. Michael Hudson 25:04

Well, I didn't quite yet.

Joe Pomeroy 25:06

Oh, dear.

Dr. Michael Hudson 25:08

That's when it started. That is when it started. And I did very soon and a mutual friend of ours will come into this story. Um, because the next week after that occurrence, I went to Michael heights platform University, which was a three day conference, right? Joe The minute I got off the plane and got to the hotel, I had the worst intestinal issues I've ever had. For those. Everybody knows what that means. It's going out of both ends and it's not stopping.

Joe Pomeroy 25:34

Thank you for getting more graphic.

Dr. Michael Hudson 25:36

Well, I thought I'd like to give you a list of the pictures that I realized life ain't perfect. But you know, I mean, I literally I'm at this conference, right I'm at the Broadmoor hotel was beautiful place. I've been wanting to go to Hyatt's platform conference for the last three years. I finally got it on my calendar. I have made the decision on that flight the previous week, that this is the year I'm going to get out of this by the end of 2015. And do the work We're here to do. And I spend most of my time in the bathroom in my hotel room. I drag myself down to the sessions. I don't sit near anybody or talk to anybody because I don't know what I've got. Then as soon as it's over, I run back to the room. I'm taking Imodium I'm, you know, I'm eating room service meals. Worst three days overhead, completely went away the minute the conference was over, so I could fly back home. Now, there's a whole bunch of people out there that know more about this than I do that will tell you that was my body's way of letting go of everything I had accumulated that I had to get rid of, to open the door for where I was going. And I'll let them be right because I know of no other reason why I was the only sick guy at the hotel. So that was November 2014. So let's fast forward and it's March 2015. I am sitting here committed to where I'm going. I've got the credit union business locked down. I know I know that I'm going to have it where it needs to be so I can move out of that at the end of 2015. Got a small handful of clients. I'm going to wind down our five year process. This is that will give me a little bit of a runway cash flow wise. And I'm complaining to my wife about how frustrating it is to try to make all these decisions about how to build essentially a personal brand business. I'm sure you can relate to that challenge.

Dr. Michael Hudson 27:14

And I said, I just wish I could go somewhere for three days and figure it all out. I turned around, and I hit refresh on my email. The first message in the inbox was from our mutual friend, Ray Edwards. The title subject line was letting me build your platform for you. I opened the email, Joe, and the man could have been sitting in the room writing the copy, as I was just talking to her before I opened the email. And I said, I'm going to this event. It was a three day workshop in Spokane. And she said, Well, how can you say that you don't know what it cost yet. And I said the following words is I don't care. I said, if it's anything under $10,000, I'm going. I said because it's worth that much for me to solve this problem and alleviate this pain and fast forward this process. And she's like, well, we're not going to Spent, I said, Well remember that and I had a Jeep that I had bought that was kind of my toy that I bought with a life insurance policy we found that my dad had left for me. And you know, it was I paid 10 grand for it. They hold their value really well. I said, I'll sell the jeep. She goes, you're gonna sell the Jeep go to this workshop? I said, Absolutely. So I did. That was where I then confronted what you were alluding to when you set this little part of this conversation up. That was when I realized you never finished the work from what you discover when you were 35. You know, this is 2015 you know, so you do the math. If in 2020, I'm 62 you know, 2015 there's a long, long gap that I carried it around. I kept hiding it. Why? Because I was doing okay. I had my, my revenues were good. My clients like me, they were generally happy with me. They referred me my business was fine. I was getting I was well known in the industry I was serving, you know, so now I realized that to do the work. I wish I could tell you to happen right away. It didn't. It kept evolving. And, you know, I was in Ray's mastermind group for About a year and a half, and that helped evolve it. And, and frankly, Ray pushed me one day in a way that really is what set the stage for it for me to finally get there. masterminds can get deep. And you know, Ray Ray can push hard. And he's pushing me one day and he keeps pushing, but why he's pushing the why. But why do you want to do this? Why do you need to talk about this? Why do you care? Why does it matter? Why? And I kind of reached the point of being a little annoyed. And the emotion just kind of bubbled up and I kind of blurted out, because I don't want anyone else to feel this pain. And he looked at me, and he said, so if you could help one person, would it be worth it? And I said, Absolutely. That was the day I decided that the story I shared a few moments ago with your audience needed to be told that I needed to say that because there are other people who need to know it's okay to acknowledge that. Yeah, there are other people who need to know that there is some place on the other side of that, and that there are people who need to realize that just because you're a man Don't be an idiot. You've got to admit what happened to you and work through it. Or you'll never get to where you need to be to make the impact that you're here to make. Now, there's more to the story. Quick, more is in 2017 at a conversation where someone said, well, aren't you afraid of sharing that people will think that you're going to become a someone who does that to people? I said, I think that's an absurd comment. And then it dawned on me, you know, if a woman told that story that I tell no woman ever think that of her. So I decided to change the word and you heard the word earlier. I decided to start using the word that was the true Word. Because I was raped. I wasn't molested. There was molestation as well, but I was right. So I decided, I have to find out how an audience reacts to that. And as I'm thinking about this, about the day, I actually have the conversation about that, I get an email from Michael Port. Now Michael Port runs a fantastic program called heroic public speaking and he's Book Yourself Solid and seven other best selling books. And it describes their 2017 live blog. Public Speaking event. And if you are willing to spend the high dollars, you get 45 minutes of live coaching onstage in front of an audience of 500 people hold my credit card out, signed up, and they get one of the spots before they were going and got one of those five spots. And I went there with one objective. What happens when a 60 year old man says he was raped in front of an audience of 500 people. And Joe, what happens is this, they all lean back in their chairs. They kind of look like the people when you know the nuclear bomb goes off.

Joe Pomeroy 31:33

I don't know what to do with this. I don't know how to process this.

Dr. Michael Hudson 31:36

Yes. And you see some that kind of put their arms around their shoulders like they're hugging themselves, some who can no longer Look at you. Others who look at you with that, you know, caring look like I wish I could hug you right now to help make the pain go away. Right? And I knew this would happen, right? I'm not stupid. I've been speaking for 30 years like I had a pretty good sense of how people were act, but I just wanted to test it and I wanted to see what coaching I would get So the coaching I got was, you know, you got to set people up, you got to let them know what's coming. And you heard me do that earlier with your audience before I said what I said, Yeah. And so to go back and come back, come back again and do that, but set them up this time. So I came at that time and I set him up, I said, Look, what I'm going to tell you is not going to be easy to hear. Some of you went through something similar. And I'm sorry, you had to experience that anyway. But I need you to know, I'm okay. That we're not going to do some activity that makes you feel uncomfortable. I'm not asking you to reveal anything about yourself. But this is a very important piece of where I'm going to take you today. So I need to share and then I said it, and everybody leaned in. And I said, Okay, I have to tell us now, the upsell out of heroic public speaking live was their graduate school program, which is four months three days a month on performance and creating a keynote speech. That's where my transformation occurred. Because that was the program where I finally unlocked what it meant. And I finally unlocked what it had been driving in me and At the end of that program, you recorded a demo video. And you know, you can go to Michael Hudson calm and watch the demo video if you're interested. And when I got it, which was July 2 2018. I watched it and I sat there in tears because I realized something a guy in that video is not the guy who owns this message. The guy in that video is the guy who wore the mask and the suit for most of his life, and hid under a layer of fat and hid by medicating with food and sugar. So on July 2 2018, I made a decision. I'm no longer going to eat sugar period full stop, because I dieted before lost the weight gain, weight, loss, weight, gain the weight, and I always had a cheat day. I said, Okay, there's no cheating this time. This is a sugar problem. I owned, I stopped, and within less than a year I lost 80 pounds. And then the day came Joe. This for me is the beautiful moment of the story for me. It's selfishly for me. I'm walking in the bathroom one day, I look in the mirror and I stop and I just Stand there, and I start crying. Because I realize that's the guy who owns the story. Now, you you asked the question earlier, and I know I've gone a long period here, but what's it like to live on the other side? It is truly incredible and amazing. Because here's what happens for me. And I believe what happened for others. I believe our journey was gifted to us. And that everything that happened to us in our journey was given to us to help us understand something in a way that only we can. And that there are people who can only learn those lessons we learned from us, and that they will cross our paths. I'm not a good enough biblical scholar, but there is actually a quote in the Bible. I believe it's in Corinthians that was shared with me a couple weeks ago, that kind of says, not only will we you know, we will share it. It's not that we may choose to or that we might, it's that we will. And what has happened for me since is the number of people who have crossed my path or I have been led some way to save That two sentence story, right? You don't need to hear anymore. When I say I was raped and molested for a year by someone who threatened to kill me if I told anyone you know, everything you need to know, details don't matter. You know, it's not like the story about being in abroad. Well, you needed to know the details.

Joe Pomeroy 35:16


Dr. Michael Hudson 35:17

you know, you don't need to know anymore. And it's fascinating the things I have had happen where I've had conversation with someone, and you know, 15-20 minutes into the conversation, they look at me and say, You know what, I just realized something. What I just told you, there were only three people on the planet who know. And you How can that be? That somehow you felt that connective net comfortable that fast with me? Yeah. And it's not because I had said the statement I had not said this statement, this individual. And you know, this person is someone that if, if I told you the name you could you if you didn't know it off the top of your head, you'd look off and go, Oh, yeah, I know who that is. And so the amazement of being on the other side is number one, that comfort that I have with knowing that there's power in sharing that. Number two is the totally different peace of mind. Look, I was hacked off with God for a lot of years, not feeling that anymore is really nice. Not being angry all the time is really nice. And having these doors open where you get these connections, and you suddenly see a person who says, because you said that and made me feel comfortable. I'm going to take action and address what I know I've been hiding long story. But that's the answer to your question of I think I got all the points of your question.

Joe Pomeroy 36:34

I would love to continue to talk and we're definitely at the max of what I try to hold up loads to but I was really moved by this idea that I wonder how many days I have spent and how many days people that I love and care about and those that I don't even know have spent looking in the mirror, trying to find who they are and to get to a point where you can look in the mirror Hear and recognize that individual as who you want to be, who you were meant to be. What a great reward

Dr. Michael Hudson 37:11

did take your breath away? I mean, it just will. And you know, I can't guarantee how long it would take anybody to get there. But you know, somebody is listening today that needed to hear this. Yeah, I know that with certainty. Maybe it's many people, and maybe you needed to hear it because there's someone you need to tell it to. But confronting that thing you've been hiding from and wishing you hadn't had to go through is so much more work and so much more painful than saying, I need to figure out what that meant. And how has that shaped me and how do I get back to being who I'm supposed to be? Which I believe starts by acknowledging that that thing changed me and not me off course not unlike that plane that's flying one degree off of where it's supposed to be going.

Joe Pomeroy 37:54

Yeah. And I think it's important to for our listeners to understand for me to remember as well You don't have to have that level of trauma or something that everyone will go Oh, yeah, that's kind of on par that's kind of on par with what Michael experienced. That's not at all what it's about. What it's about is that we each have faced particular experiences that have carved unhealthy beliefs into our core. And we need to expose those things to the truth, so that we can rewrite those beliefs, heal our core, and live who we're meant to be.

Dr. Michael Hudson 38:34

I love that. You are so right. There is a woman I've worked with in the past year, one sentence, one sentence in the life of a woman who is 56 years old, said by a mother when she was 12. And the sentence was shut up. Nobody cares what you think, crippled her until I had the pleasure of working where they're at heroic public speaking, and she finally worked through widely It had been, in a way, what it meant and what it had taught her. Yeah, let's not miss that point. As a closing note, yeah. What it taught you is where the value is. It's the value to you. It's the value of other people. It's the value, how do you figure out what it taught you? So as you move forward, it no longer holds you back, but it instead equips you to live better and live as you were designed to live, and impact people who are here to be impacted by you. Perfect. All right.

Joe Pomeroy 39:27

Well, I don't know what you're going to add to that. But I do always. I do always ask my guest. And we'll try to keep this to 60 seconds or less. We'll say 30 seconds or left. If there's one principle that you hope the listeners will walk away with, what would that be? And secondly, how can they connect with you in the online world?

Dr. Michael Hudson 39:45

The one principle is map your journey, map your journey and identify the lessons. What did you what lessons did you earn from your journey, not learn but earn as the Earned lessons are the ones that really have the impact? You know, you can find me at Michael Hudson Calm I'm on all the social stuff is at Dr. Michael Hudson because when I got my URL, somebody else already had Michael Hudson. And the other place you can find me is I never remember the URL, Joe, but you'll put it in the show notes. I trust it. Yeah, it's a spire to impact dot sub I write a weekday newsletter that started about a month ago, that is really intended to inspire people to become who they're capable of being leading themselves, leading others and leading the organizations. So I'd be honored if you check that out and read an issue or two and maybe subscribe because that's the only way you get my information on a regular basis sent to me.

Joe Pomeroy 40:36

Perfect. Well, we'll make sure to have that URL in the show notes. Thank you so much, Michael, for being on the show. Thank you for everything that you've shared in a time went by fast and just really easy to to listen and connect with your story. So thank you so much.

Joe Pomeroy 40:53

Thank you for joining us on today's episode. If you found the information helpful, remember to share it with your friends and family, and make sure to subscribe on Apple podcasts or your favorite podcast player. You can find more episodes at Forward with Joe Pomeroy. Thank you and we'll see you next time.