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#023 – Jason Borowicz starts his story as a 9th grade English teacher on the chopping block

Hear how the right advice, the right focus, and the right dedication turned his career in education around and eventually led to international consulting at some of the highest levels.

Jason shares insights on communication, alignment, marriage, business, creative tension, conflict, and really any other practice that society needs to hear today.

Listen to his experiences in this week’s episode and leap ahead in your journey.

Thank you for listening and please share the linkthank you for your support.

Always Forward,

Joe

Resources Mentioned:

Jason Borowicz 0:05

So that alignment thing comes first before anything else can happen usefully whether business pains or progress in relationship. We've got to be aligned. Alignment comes first. And so unification has an exponential power

Joe Pomeroy 0:25

welcome everybody to this week's episode of the Forward with Joe Pomeroy cast. I'm looking forward to our guest today. He's known as the advantage architect Jason Borowitz. So let's hit it. How are you?

Jason Borowicz 0:38

I'm doing great Joe. Thanks.

Joe Pomeroy 0:40

I'm super excited to be talking with you because you spent a decade in one of my favorite places on the planet. And that's New Zealand. What took you over there?

Jason Borowicz 0:49

Man, we we had some friends that were moving over there when they're involved in the insurance industry and when Obamacare was being implemented their business They put their business at risk. Not not, it's not a political statement. And that's just what was happening. And so they were looking to diversify their business opportunities and do something in case their business. It ended up helping them. It ended up like 10 X in their business in the end. But at the moment, they didn't know what was going to go. So when they're planning their move, they said to my wife and I were doing this move, do you want to have an adventure? So my wife and I planned on a two year adventure, and it turned into 10. That's, that's either a really amazing adventure that you couldn't let go of, or it was something where you got stuck, but yeah, well, it was a we didn't have any kids when we when, but we came back with three Kiwis. Wow.

Joe Pomeroy 1:44

That's awesome. And for those that aren't lucky enough to know New Zealand, like Jason and I do like a kiwi is a nickname for someone from New Zealand. So it's an affectionate term. It's a positive term. So well, awesome. I'm so excited to dive into your story. So you're doing some really powerful things with businesses right now. But you also, you've shared some really powerful things with me about your journey with your wife and some things you guys went through to get there. So I'm excited to dive into that as well. Because as, as the listeners know, we really focus on whatever it is that you're doing in business and how you're helping people succeed in business. And then let's translate that to family. And then the lessons that you've learned with your family to translate that to business. So where do you what part of your story do you want to talk about first?

Jason Borowicz 2:30

Well, I think the most, the most powerful part of of my story was my transition into business. So I started off life as a high school English teacher. I taught ninth grade, and I was not, I was not very good at it. So in a district where we had an average of about a 7% fail rate, mine was 17%. So you know, I was two and a half times worse. 250% worse than the next or then the Average, which is a problem for a principal. And it's a problem for a head of department right? To have that many more kids go into summer school and not getting the credits. And so I had a heart to heart conversation one June with my principal and was being told I was putting being put on a performance improvement plan. And that's a nice way of saying we'd like to fire you, but because there's a union we can't. And so we're gonna, we're telling you in a year from today, you're fired is that's kind of what that language means. And so I went through a bit of an identity crisis. And, you know, it's a big failure to have that be confronted with that. And it fortunately for me, I had a mentor at the time. And I said, Well, I've got some other things lined up. I've got an offer with Xerox to be a copier salesperson, I can go to that if teachings I'm going to work and, and he said, Well, I mean, you could definitely make twice or three times as much selling copiers. If you're going to be unhappy in your work, you might as well make three times more because I can't imagine you're gonna be happy doing that. Like, okay, it sounds to me like you're saying this is a bad. So what would you say? He said, Well, he said, I don't know, I don't have a background in education. I don't know a thing about it. But my my inclination is that there are people that do, like they give away Teacher of the Year awards, right? Well, yeah, I suppose they do. Yes. So what are they doing? Why don't you ask some of these people who are winning awards, what they're doing, like, it doesn't make sense to just leave it right. He said, My fear for you, is if you run from something, you won't know why you were running, necessarily. And when you fail in the next thing, you won't have understood what made you fail, and you'll walk into another failure because you don't understand what made you fail the last time. So he said, My advice would be to figure out what at least what made you fail before you move on if you know then if you want to leave teaching, leave teaching, but don't leave it until you know why you're failing. is like that actually sounds pretty smart. So then over the next year, I retooled and I looked into some training and I found a teaching mentor. And a year from that date when I was told I was put on a performance improvement plan. I improved to zero percent. Everybody in my class succeeded everybody in my that took my English class passed, and everybody got a 91% or higher in the class where before my average had been a 74, something like that. Wow. So I raised at 18% plus everybody passed. And so from there, I ended up doing some national consulting for education, like, what are you doing in your classroom? I traveled in the US and did some things. When I moved to New Zealand. I transitioned into doing learning and development for a company who at hood, they asked me like, well, could you get the same results with our employees as you do in schools? Like Well, the brains of brains people are people, nobody drives to work intending to fail. Nobody rides a school bus intending to fail,

Joe Pomeroy 6:03

right.

Jason Borowicz 6:03

Same kind of idea. So I think it'll work and it worked. And, and from there, I just kept going up the chain because I just kept asking strategic questions about, you know why things fail and usually not the people's fault. It's usually the systems tools, leadership that they're being given. And so within 18 months, I ended up being like a strategic consultant for the city of Auckland.

Joe Pomeroy 6:27

Wow, that's fantastic. I love the concept of mindset. The book mindset by Carol Dweck is one of my favorites. And she really talks about this concept of having a fixed mindset versus a growth mindset. And the basic summary is a fixed mindset says, Well, this is the best I can do. And that's all there is to it. That's that's my ceiling. a growth mindset says, If I'm not where I want to be, let me look at what's keeping me from where I want to be. Find the resources, the people the tools In order to become better, and what a pivotal conversation you had with that, that associate that friend to say, Jason, if you run, you'll always be running. So instead of deciding that that's your ceiling, and then moving somewhere else until you hit another ceiling, why not check out resources and tools? I mean, that sounds incredibly transformational. That conversation to have that paradigm shift in your perspective.

Jason Borowicz 7:27

Yeah, well, especially because it challenges your own status quo. But it also began to shatter your, your beliefs of going more. Well, I never even thought about it. It seems so simple, but I hadn't ever thought about it that way before like, Oh, well, there are people who have you don't have to reinvent the wheel. You can look at other people that have been successful and not copy. But there's a lot of useful things they're doing that you can use.

Joe Pomeroy 7:50

I think part of what's powerful about that as well as because making that decision, if you had just chosen to take that next year, and let's say you had 17% your classroom Fail. I mean, you're looking at a dozen, a couple dozen kids whose lives were radically if you had not chosen to step up, look, take a look at yourself and figure out what you could improve. That would have impacted not just the kids that then had to go to summer school, but the kids who are averaging a 74, who now suddenly they're getting a 91. And that impacts their own belief system.

Jason Borowicz 8:28

Yeah, that's right. Well, I think it even had a bigger impact on those kids, the kids that were already passing, but didn't care. And now all of a sudden, they're not only engaged, but they believe they can do it.

Joe Pomeroy 8:39

That's powerful. So how do you create change like that? in any field, whether it's family, Business School, how do you create a change and improvement like that? Because it can't be just providing simpler tests or giving away answers or putting things I mean, because that's, that's not success. That's not helping the kids succeed. And what you were doing was helping them succeed. So how do we do that? How do you How did you provide that for those kids? How do we do it in business and marriage?

Jason Borowicz 9:08

That's a very good question. And I went for an MBA and my MBA thought he was exactly that. It basically the first step and whether it's marriage, because if you if you look at it, if you lift the conversation up one level, it's kind of business and marriage are just different formats of organization. So if we defined organization as more than one person working together towards a common goal, I mean, I wouldn't run my marriage the same way that I'd run a business, but the concepts work, right. The same concepts apply to both because they're both organizations. They're both complex beings, you know, trying to work together to accomplish something. And there's hidden goals, explicit goals, hidden triggers, open triggers, and they both they happen in both organizations and that's what you're dealing with in changes like you hitting all these triggers, and you don't know what you're going to be hitting by doing what? So you come in and go with it. So one of my questions for people is in biz on the business side is, hey, look, we change our socks all the time, we change our shoes, we even from time to time, decide to drive a different car or live in a different house. But yet your manager comes to you at work and says, we're gonna make a change. And all of a sudden, there's all this resistance, right? And the difference is agency, right? Because you get to choose your socks. So if we can work agency into the way that we change, we find the resistance lowers, the triggers don't the trigger still might be there and we can help people deal with the emotional stuff. But the resistance can be lower even when there is emotional difference because people can legitimately grieve what they're losing in a change while at the same time, embrace the change. Just because there's grieving doesn't mean people are resisting. Those are two different things. And in a marriage, it's like, I think it happens more in terms of alignment is the word I'd use. It's saying, like, even though we're thinking really differently about this, I still believe you are a good person with good intentions. We're just not aligned at the moment in terms of how to get the outcome that we both want. Neither of us want bad outcomes for our kids. Neither of us want to have a bad reputation with our in laws or with our families. Neither of us want to have a bad time with our friends or we want all we want those good things. We're just disagreeing or misunderstanding each other at the moment on how to accomplish those things. So a lot of it's in communication, like in blinking words. So when I say the word say, when I say the word babysit a trigger to my wife sometimes because like, well, you're not babysitting. You're the dad. Dads don't babysit dads.

Joe Pomeroy 11:52

Dads parent dads. Do dad stuff. They interact. That's your job. Yeah,

Jason Borowicz 11:56

right. Like, right, but I don't mean it that way. I just mean for lack of a better word, the person taking care of the kids for that amount of time, right? But I don't know the word for it. So I'm just saying. So there's these blinking words that are like, they're like little silent bombs that we throw at each other without even knowing it. And it's not intentional. And it's not trying to be hurtful, but I call them blinking words. They're like where we say something and we both have different definitions of the same word. Uh huh. And so you have to just stop and go Hold me experienced I just had of you saying that was really bad. I just got really mad inside and I don't think I should be. Tell me what you're thinking when you say that word. Right? So I catch the emotion before it before it forms a behavior. And I just speak to the emotion back and play with it like it makes me really mad like I'm feel really mad inside. I'm trying not to be so tell me what it is so I can help me not be mad.

Joe Pomeroy 12:53

I love that because my wife and I use that same practice. I like blinking words. That makes sense. It's I almost picture like this hazard. Light or you know, this morning light kind of thing. In business, you can do the same thing and have that conversation, you just maybe process the, you know, if you're speaking to a supervisor or you know, your supervisor or your manager or something like that, you may not be able to tell your manager, you know, well, Excuse me, ma'am. But that actually brought up some, some resentment and anger and frustration in me. And what do you mean, you just process that with yourself and then with the manager, get the clarity that you need, and you can do some of that internal processing? And a lot of that will depend on the company culture, and what's appropriate. Not. Yeah, that's right.

Jason Borowicz 13:40

Yeah, well, and you can get agreement with a manager to just say, hey, from time to time, I find it's helpful. Like, I won't do this in front of other people. But is it okay for me to pull you aside and just ask you if, if some bothers me, and just do this because I've just learned it as a good practice. I mean, if we want to do it as a team, that's a different conversation, but can I have your permission to do this? Then you can. So one example I've got from the real world and business I was facilitating in an insurance company. And I was with the head of marketing. And she had all the team there. And she was talking about the rollout. And my role was I just said, I want you to go through your meeting as normal. Because I'm not gonna I don't do training programs, because I don't think people remember much. I don't think they work. I just facilitate real life. So do your meeting, like you do your meeting? and from time to time, I'm going to jump in and add some things. So she said, Now Scott's in charge of the rollout. And Scott was just agreed, put his hand up. Yep. Yep, I got that. It'll go out the 13th. And I said, Okay, stop, freeze. Now, Joan, when you said roll out What went through your head? What did you mean? Because rollouts a common a very, very common blinking word. Right. So Rajon, what's rollout mean? Well, it means like, I'd like to have a cake and we'd like to have some party hats and streamers and really listens a huge event for the company, this new software and we're putting this out there and like, Scott, What went through your head when you said rollout? He goes, I'm hitting enter on the email. There are either of those bad intentions. No. But is there going to be a conflict two weeks from now? Is there gonna be a conflict on the 13th? Yes,

Joe Pomeroy 15:24

that's a powerful example. And it's it's perfect it It fits so real. And there's, I love what you said that there's no bad intentions, that it's not I mean, both are looking to succeed. Both are looking to do their part. It's not in these circumstances, it's often has nothing to do with the intention, but having a different perspective or a different definition for a term. And so here's the mistake I think we make in society. Is that okay, Jason, you and I, we have different definitions for a term we'll use rollouts is that what we just We define it differently. And now when we communicate with each other if my primary goal is to have you accept my definition of the term, and your primary goal is to have me accept as my own your definition of the goal. All that leads to is conflict. Yes, there's there's no progress. There's no arguing points. And we see this. This is rampant in society throughout the world, among all nations. Instead of, I don't have to accept your definition as my own. But if I understand what your definition is, now, I know how I can speak to that, in order for us to achieve a common goal.

Jason Borowicz 16:43

That's right. And so that becomes what the alignment conversation is, even if we might disagree on what the meaning of that word is. We can then go Okay, well, what outcomes Do we agree on? Whether it's marriage or life like what do we agree where do we agree? Because we're going to To finally agree on a whole lot more than we disagree. Yeah. Right. So if I talked to those two, and they were like, Well, what do you agree on? Well, we agree that this launch should be recognized. We agree that it should be a big deal. We agree that these these stakeholders should be included. Okay, well, what's a way that that can happen where Scott doesn't have to be like a party planner, but Jones expectations that there's some kind of social event and that it's that that is part of it, too. Scott, can you figure that one out without needing to involve Joan, because she's got other things to do? Right. That's why you're in charge of it. So is there some executive decisions you can make about what that looks like? that you think will meet John's expectations? Yeah. Do it. Just make a decision and do it and john, you'd be okay with his decisions, knowing that he's aiming at your intent.

Joe Pomeroy 17:52

Yeah, for sure. And sometimes, I mean, using the continuances example of Scott and Joan and Scott might enjoy party planning right? He might have wanted to do that, but wasn't aware he had the budget to do that. And so all he was planning on doing was hitting Enter, because he maybe he made some assumptions about the expectation. Well, I thought she just wanted me to get this done, and out the door so that I can move on to my next project that she's given me. And so sometimes it's I mean, we come back to this communication and communication is not a one time event. And it's not simply the words coming out of the mouth, my mouth or the body language that I'm using. It's the presumptions we make it's the definitions of the terms we use. And the only way to rectify that is with what you're you're sharing with us here is to continue that conversation to dig deeper into it to explore what's defined to communicate emotions and, and create clarity on expectations. I love it. So now you're doing this with businesses around the world, right?

Jason Borowicz 18:53

Yeah, I've worked in the US Of course, New Zealand worked in Australia. I've done work in Nigeria, Northern Ireland, Czech Republic, Canada.

Joe Pomeroy 19:05

That's awesome. Well, let's bring it all home then. So now you're able throughout the throughout the world to be able to create that kind of influence and sharing these things. So now let's bring this home forget everything in Nigeria, New Zealand and UK.

Jason Borowicz 19:21

What's going on in Detroit?

Joe Pomeroy 19:22

Yeah, what's going on with Jason and his and his wife? How do you take this knowledge and make sure that it's not just business talk for you?

Jason Borowicz 19:34

That's a good question. And and and I don't always do it, right. So I do from time to time my wife's like, quit doing your business stuff. I mean,

Joe Pomeroy 19:43

yes, I get that too.

Jason Borowicz 19:47

It's a it's an imperfect practice, shall we say? Yeah, I think it's more learning as a guy to be more in touch with not enough Not in a woowoo, mushy way, but be in touch with what's going on internally and how it's forming your beliefs and behaviors. And it doesn't require a whole lot of like, I don't practice mindfulness or anything like I don't, it just didn't. I've tried it doesn't work for me. But what what has worked is doing things like painting, which is another form of it, but if I'm active with something else, it slows my mind down enough to be able to process some things that what's going on. So I think for me, the work has been slowing down enough or slowing my mind enough to to understand what's going on and then how that's forming beliefs and behaviors that I might be taking out on my relationship. So I'm carrying stress from work and I've but then I don't have an outlet for it. And because I don't feel in control, the way that I do have control in an unhealthy ways to play it out on my family and in some unhealthy way. Or because I'm frustrated at myself for not sticking to some other goal, like that's the work for me is to make that internal work instead of, because I'm frustrated that I didn't meet a weight loss goal to take that out on my family, like owning the responsibility of that, but then using using them more as support like I didn't, like I have this goal I want to meet it hold me accountable to it, like don't let me this stuff or don't buy this stuff or let's do this thing together or, I don't know being creative in how you manage it instead of feeling like you've got to do it alone because guys are now we're we're kind of loners in that sense a lot more than women are. So that's the struggle from the male side is not, you know, acting as the the lone wolf and kind of learning to open yourself up a little bit and address some of the internal stuff that's going on.

Joe Pomeroy 21:49

That brings us back again to this idea of how how do we define the terms that infiltrate our life, you know, you're sharing these stories and these aspects of, you know, one be, you know, you said you don't practice mindfulness. And yet you'll paint. Yeah. And you'll do different creative work that does the same thing. And so there's then there's a definition about mindfulness, and what that means to you versus how it's actually reflected in your life. And then here's one of the biggest words that we as human beings struggle to define. What does it mean to be a man? oh. And what creates that definition? Yeah, I mean, that is it the the music over the years, the, the stories, traditions, movies, you know, john wayne, Clint Eastwood, you know, Dirty Harry, those are men, those are men's men, you know, but, but but why even in today, athletes and, you know, LeBron James or mahomes, quarterback for the chiefs, you know, I think of Ray Lewis and when he was in the NFL, you know, just crushing people and say, Oh, yeah, he's a real man. Well, so does that mean I'm not a man, if I'm not on the football field crushing people, right. So That's a powerful opportunity and a great place to start, even if it's just that introspection because again, it's not about it's not about this immediate change. I mean, if we go back to Scott and Joan and the difference you're able to make from with them, that was great for that situation, were they ever going to need to reflect on that again, as they move forward on other projects,

Jason Borowicz 23:21

that will give them a skill that they can use them right, which was the whole idea of if we can improve your active listening, and as well as like paying attention to what's going on for you that you'll you add a few of these things in and all of a sudden they start accelerating like they start producing better work more often at a higher pace and higher quality with that they can invoice more for and right so it you don't need a whole lot of those things to that it makes a profound difference and in your business.

Joe Pomeroy 23:55

Absolutely. And so then the same applies to our families and marriages. Yeah, that's right. We have this skill that we practice and we continue to implement. And it's not about perfection. It's about the practice. It's about the consistency.

Jason Borowicz 24:10

Yeah, that's right. Well, it is a practice, right? Just like they said, like a doctor says I, they aren't. It's not a science, it's a practice, because every person is different. And so the patterns might fit or they might not fit given the individual and their biology and what their body reacts to and what they ate last night and you know, whatever. So it's the same in organizations. It's the same in a marriage. So I have I have friends who they are very, very healthy marriages in the dad is the stay at home parent and the wife works but I've also got friends who the dad is a professional athlete and does knock people over for a living and they have and they have a loving marriage do so I think that it's also contextual and and how you make it work and What the life you want to design for yourselves together. And yet,

Joe Pomeroy 25:06

I love that because it doesn't matter, the program, the book, the course the opportunity, it doesn't matter, the framework of it that well, I guess that's all it is. All it is is a framework. Yeah. And it's a framework then that I have to put my personality into that I have to put my definitions of term. Okay, what does it mean for me to be a man? And I put that in there? What does it mean for me to be a good? What does a good husband look like? For me? What does having a good marriage look like? For me? What does being a provider look like? To me, I used to define being a provider as strictly the amount of money in the bank account and the type of food on the plate. That's what made me a good provider. It wasn't about emotional support. It wasn't about quality time, it wasn't about these other things that are so critical to healthy development, within within a family, you know, or even even within business, you know, what's a good businessman? Well, I'm gonna get a good manager, I'm gonna get my team to get from point A to point B and have point B be what we want. Well, what if they're miserable during the whole time? What if they're struggling? What if they're angry? What if there's resentment developing? What if I'm, you know, I've got turnover transitions out of my department because of those struggles. But you've got to have that personal just like you said, You can't It doesn't matter what you do, or what you take or what course you you have. It's about being able to take that as a framework and applying it to your personal life. That's powerful. I like that.

Jason Borowicz 26:33

Yeah, yeah. And it's so it becomes it's liberating in a sense, because what it means is you've got freedom, and it's not somebody else's rule or law that you've got to use. Because if it's outside of your control, then that doesn't work that's also out of your control. Right, then I know you don't have to take responsibility for it. But if it's a framework that you have control over that, you can say, Well, I can speak my own truth into this too and make it work for me. There's also a sense of personal responsibility that lives there too, to say, Well, what work are you doing to make it work for you? Because Mike, the same recipe that works at at sea level doesn't work up in the mountains.

Joe Pomeroy 27:11

That's right. You got to adjust for altitude,

Jason Borowicz 27:14

right? Even recipes. They're supposed to be science based and the exact ingredients, they're not the same either. Right? So how is it gonna be for something as an organism as complex as a human being, and then you put two of them together? And now you got to make a framework work for all of us, right? Yeah, that never had a shot. No, there was never gonna work.

Joe Pomeroy 27:34

Man, I'd never thought about that recipe analogy. But that's, that's true. And I love how you tied that into, you know, that's supposed to be scientific. That's supposed to be something that's been measured out and being created as an exact opportunity. But yeah, that's really interesting, because as you talk about the, and this word has come up for me several times during our conversation. It's the ownership. It's the individual ownership I need to own One my reactions to blinking words that others use my voice, I need to own my responses, I need to own my own definition. And part of that is knowing what those things are. And then the other part of it is consciously choosing what I want them to be if I don't like how I define rollout or babysit or any of those other terms. If that's not working for me, I'm allowed to change it.

Jason Borowicz 28:28

Right? We set the rules. Yeah, break them.

Joe Pomeroy 28:33

Yes, it is. It's, it's not an it's not taking this word, baby set and turning it to mean, you know, the, the amount of gas that's left in your vehicle. I mean, that's, that's totally different markets. We're not creating a new universe here. But by reworking definitions to create a cohesion and how we want to move forward, I've redefined what it means to be a provider. It's no longer about The amount of money in a bank account the food on a plate, it's being a good provider. It has to do with my emotional responses, how I react to crazy, crazy things my kids do, you know, and all those other things and a whole bunch more that I won't keep talking about. So what's, what are you doing within your business and within your marriage to create the definitions that are bringing you the success that they're bringing?

Jason Borowicz 29:28

I think there's a there's kind of two principles that I would would say I apply that on a regular regular basis what the first one is, it is more important to be unified than to be right. So that alignment thing comes first before anything else can happen usefully whether a business change or progress in a relationship. We've got to be aligned first alignment comes first and so unification has an exponential power to it. Because I know there's more than one right way to do things. That leads to the second principle, which is I have a simultaneous, tight, loose hold on anything I've come up with. So I've got a tight hold on the outcome I want. I've got a tight hold on the on the principles I want to live by, on the outcomes I want for my business in terms of what I want it to produce in terms of the goals, the sales, the ways that I will, the kind of clients I want the kind of legacy I will leave my kids like that I'm holding tightly to. But I'm not particularly interested in holding tightly to any particular method, or any particular way of doing it because I always have to be open to learning a new pathway, a new way of doing something, somebody that's been there before insight, my wife might have insight my kids might have to get there faster, which they can only help with if I'm open about what the goal is. So those two things working together, simultaneous, loose, tight hold, more important to be unified them to be Right,

Joe Pomeroy 31:01

man, I was ready to jump some comments on the first one and some thoughts that I had. And then they were answered perfectly with that second point, it was like the the finishing touch. Because I think whether we're talking about a business, or a nation, or a religious congregation, or a marriage, or a sports team, whatever it happens to be, I think a mistake that gets made is that it's better to be unified than to be right. And we think to be unified means going back to what we talked about earlier. It's either option A or Option B. And for us to be unified, you need to step over to option B, we need to be unified in all things from beginning to end, not just the destination, but how we're going to get there. And we need to be unified and why we're going to get there. And it's you know, and if you have anything that's outside of that realm, know things were not unified and it's your fault, but that's not where it stops. I want you to talk more about this, because I love the idea of being unified in the objective. But being open to the process of achieving that objective. Give me an example, whether business or marriage or societal. What is an example that you've experienced of being unified in the objective, flexible in the process, yet working together through that flexibility in order to achieve the objective?

Jason Borowicz 32:30

Well, a good one was when we moved back from New Zealand to the States, we had a real I wouldn't say conflict. That wasn't where the conflict happened. But it started with deciding what to do with kids education. Because moving halfway around the world, we weren't sure, like moving to where we're moving. We didn't know about the schools or the districts or options and we're changing countries and there was a whole lot we had to learn about our area. And so in trying to work through the options. One of the options was to go to the local schools. So we went and visited, and we just didn't think based on how they're doing it at that particular school wasn't going to be a good fit. So then the option, the fallback option was homeschooling. And we were like, in our fight came to be around. We agreed on homeschooling as a short term kind of thing. But then it was going to be my wife, but I'm the one with the education background, that she was going to be doing the teaching. And she was really struggling with putting together curriculum and asking for help. But of course, you know, my help. I'm just like, well, it's as easy as pulling on my back pocket. This is what you do. And it felt very academic and very, like I'm telling you what to do. So we had this. We both wanted the same for our kids, right? We both wanting to have a good experience and be excited about learning and exceed and You know, be the best in the class and like every other parent does, and my kids so special. And but we were at different points in our development, different points in our belief, different points in our research at different points and understanding about what works and doesn't work. And I remember having this conversation because we were like, shall we say, we were, you know, talking very excitedly at each other about our different views. And I step back and I said, you know, what this really is, is like, I'm experiencing it as conflict, you're experiencing it as conflict. I think what's really happening here is creative tension. Right? And that's like good things happen when there's creative tension. And more often than not, in relationships and in business. The thing the thing that's actually happening is creative tension, but we're just not managing it that well. We're perceiving it as conflict. were reacting to it as if it's conflict, where if I believed this is creative tension, like we've got these two intractable things it seemed to have met. Okay, well, what's the third way? Or the fourth way or the 52nd? way? Right? That's where we've got to go deep and start thinking of some new things. And like the the models broken for both of us. So we need a new model. Right? And then that's where the that's where the creativity and innovation whatever come from. And so in my facilitation, and in my work with business, I actually try to provoke those things to get people into these situations where it seems like Well, it seems intractable. Like it seems like this view is in this view, they they cannot be together. So what are we going to do? You know, and and bringing people through to realize what you're experiencing is not conflict. You've been trained to believe that through watching too much cable news. But the reality is, it's creative tension. And great things come out of creative tension and, and being able to argue a point even emotionally, you're passionately, and have the other person realize I'm not arguing passionately against you, I'm just for something. And being forced is not the same as being against you. And you're welcome to be for something as well. And when when I'm in a room, and I'm like, I've done this with marriages, too, because I've spoken at marriage conferences and work with couples and things, and you hear them. And I'm like, Well, I hear you saying a lot of about what you don't like about what the other person I'm hearing very loudly, what you're against, what I'm really interested in hearing is what you're for. Right? Because that's where you can turn that conflict into creative tension is, well, let's talk about what we're for, because that's where we start to find the alignment.

Joe Pomeroy 36:41

I like that. Talk about what we're for. Because in there lies the alignment. Awesome. So two questions. I asked everybody at the end of the episode, if our listeners were to walk away with one principle, what would you hope that principle would be? Question number two, how do we get in touch with you get more about what it is you do? information on you.

Jason Borowicz 37:01

So let's take away one thing would be my, my personal motto is stay curious. Everything that comes up ask why about it you get triggered by something your wife says it's more important to answer why was I triggered? And to answer whatever she said, Why did that happen? What caused it? Why would I react that way? Why is everybody else not reacting to this? Like that's a weird thing. Like I'm reacting to this and nobody else does. That's really strange. That's worth looking into. Right? So be very, very curious about my own motivations, beliefs, behaviors, but then stay curious about everything else to about what we believe about our business, what we believe will drive profits or not and believe if we've grown enough, a lot of times are the businesses I work with will tell me first like, well, we don't need your help. We grew 10% last year, and my answer is, well, how do you know that couldn't have been 300% if I was working with you, right, the problem is not growth. The problem is you're not growing fast enough to have enough cash in the bank to beat the next change that comes So that would be the thing stay curious. If you want to find me, you can send me a an email JB at Jason Borowitz. com. And if you want, I've got a I've got a little freebie for you, if you email me at that email address, there's a thing called developing a givers mindset. So I've got six activities that you can work through. If you actually do all six of those, and you email me back and set up a time to talk through it with me, I'll give you 50% off any event that you want to come to Wow. Right, but you gotta earn your way in by doing the activities, right and that's how I see who I'm going to coach or not is do you do what the coach said? Awesome. So that's, that's my, my business and me in a nutshell. Find me Jason Borowitz comm get in touch and just stay curious.

Joe Pomeroy 38:52

Perfect. We'll have all that information in the show notes so that people can follow up with you. Thank you so much for your time, Jason. Really appreciate having you on the show.

Jason Borowicz 39:01

Yeah. Thanks for the invite Joe. It's great to get to know you a little bit. Yeah, best of luck to you.

Joe Pomeroy 39:10

Thank you for joining us on today's episode. If you found the information helpful, remember to share it with your friends family. And make sure to subscribe on Apple podcasts or your favorite podcast player. You can find more episodes at Forward with Joe.com. Thank you, and we'll see you next time.